Govinda Raj Joshi A well known name in Nepali politics senior Nepali Congress leader, GOVINDA RAJ JOSHI, has seen many ups and downs in his political career, is noted for being bold enough to take a tough stand against the Maoists. Joshi, who had been minister in charge of a number of ministries in the past, says that the Maoists can not be trusted unless they show genuine faith in the multi party parliamentary democracy. He is one of the few leaders within and without the Nepali Congress who has been consistent in his stand. As the national politics goes through turbulent times and future course still uncertain, the Congress strongman Joshi spoke to KESHAB POUDEL on various issues regarding the current political situation. Excerpts: After the announcement of street agitation and blockade of Legislature Parliament and Constituent Assembly by Maoists, where is Nepali politics heading now? Maoist agitation is mysterious as it will invite direct confrontation. The Maoists want to establish own government. What is the difference between Maoist and other parties? Nepal’s major political parties Nepali Congress, CPN-UML, MJF, TMLP and others feel that the Maoist party is a threat to civilian supremacy. Maoist interpretation of civilian supremacy is different from the kind civilian supremacy upheld by democratic parties. Maoist’s slogan of civilian supremacy is a strategy to capture power. You said it is just a Maoist strategy to capture power. If that is so, what strategy does Nepali Congress have to foil such a move? Our party supported the initiative to pull down the Maoist government. We supported Nepal Army against Maoists. Our whole strategy is to isolate the Maoist party. If we fail to isolate it, there is always a threat to civilian supremacy. Unity among all political parties is needed to isolate the Maoists. Don’t you think Maoist are now isolated? Yes, they seem to be isolated. But, Maoists are making efforts to play CPN-UML and Nepali Congress against each other. The recent move to form all party high-level political committee is a ploy. This is a part of a conspiracy to give political space to Maoists. The whole objective of this committee is to change the government. So the formation of a high level committee will bring Maoists in the government? There is no sense in constituting such a committee except for wooing the Maoists and bring them in the government. This is a very tactical move. If Maoists disagree to join the government, the aim is to secure Maoist support to form the next government. CPN-UML leadership, including prime minister Madhav Kumar Nepal, should know this. If Maoist party is really sincere in the process, the priority should be given to draft the constitution. But the high level political committee is a brainchild of your party leader Girija Prasad Koirala. You cannot say that all the proposals made by Nepali Congress end up with good results. We have seen devastating consequences following the proposals made by Nepali Congress. From signing the twelve point agreement to holding the elections of CA and other many agreements with Maoists, all agreements produced counterproductive results to the country and our party. There is no reason to believe that this new proposal will produce better results. Then, why do they need it? In terms of political philosophy and accepted democratic norms, this kind of committee has no meaning. There are 22 parties in the government and Maoist in opposition. If the aim is to control the government, even inviting the opposition to such a committee will give a wrong message. A high level committee may be needed to create consensus in drafting the constitution. But, this committee seems to be more political and directed to intervene in prime minister’s power. If the decisions taken by Nepali Congress in the past had not been favorable to your party and country, don’t you own responsibility for this? If you don’t, weren’t you just a helpless spectator? We did not remain silent spectator. We fought tooth and nail against the decisions. But you failed to prevent such decisions? We made all efforts to prevent it. For instance, out of 31 members in the Central Working Committee of the party, 28 were with us. It is very unfortunate to say that 3 members could override the decision of 28 members. In one word, we were in minority with more people in number supporting us. If the decision taken by 28 CWC members did not prevail, who prevails Nepali Congress? This is because of concentration of power in one individual. We have been talking about the need to have collective leadership to avoid such things in the future. We want change in leadership and change in party organizations. Our party’s policy is not to join hands with the extreme leftist party like Maoists. It is against the spirit of national reconciliation propounded by B.P. Koirala. By undermining B.P.’s policy, we reached in the present state. UCPN-Maoist is the largest party having one third of seats in CA. How can you draft the constitution in time and bring the politics back on the right track by pushing Maoists into isolation? It seems very difficult to do it. But given their nature, we cannot correct the Maoists without isolating them. Maoists too know the international situation which is not favorable to them. Thus, Maoists are playing Nepali Congress and CPN-UML against themselves to survive. The need is to have strong unity between NC and UML to teach Maoist a lesson that only their orientation towards democracy will make them a mainstream party. Members of the international community, including Nepal’s two neighbors, have been suggesting the need to bring Maoists to the national mainstream along with major political parties. How can you justify your view on the need to isolate them? The suggestions are genuine. We also want Maoists in mainstream politics. Instead of creating hurdles, Maoists also need to support the constitution making process by expressing complete faith to the democratic ideals. But, Maoists are saying that they will not support the constitution making process without forming national government under their leadership. Is it possible to make the constitution without involving Maoists which has over 230 seats in the CA? It is impossible to make the constitution without their participation. But, Maoists are not sincere to make the constitution. When they were in the government, they were not sincere. Instead of taking part in the constitution making process, Maoists started to interfere with the affairs of Nepal Army, particularly with the chief of the army. Maoists wanted to integrate their combatants into Nepal Army. When army chief declined to obey them, Maoists initiated action against him. Maoist priority is to integrate their combatants in the army but not making a constitution. Maoist party is the largest party in the CA but they don’t have enough strength to form the government Don’t you think isolating Maoist will invite political clash? The political clashes are natural in politics sometime. Politics is not a place for mediation like in Pashupati. It is natural to have competition and clashes but it should be within democratic norms. Clashes between the ruling and opposition party is natural in democratic system. If Maoists pushed their agenda threatening bloody confrontation, the government has to deal with it in accordance with law and democratic norms. In case, the Maoists declare bloody war, the government has to take all necessary measures to maintain law and order. The government needs to be strong to deal with the forces hostile to democratic norms and rule of law. The state has various apparatus including Home and Defense ministries to take the necessary steps to maintain harmony and order in the society. When Maoists have 19,000 combatants, militant cadets and large number YCL scattered all over Nepal and other political parties do not have that kind of forces, how will you contain Maoists in case they declare violent agitation? We have everything with us but what is lacking is willpower. In politics, willpower is very important. If a person with willpower and commitment to democratic rights is in the power, everything is possible. Do you think such persons will come from nowhere? Definitely, such persons will come. Where will they come from? They will come from Constituent Assembly. Among 601 members, there are also persons with strong willpower. Such persons are in our party and CPN-UML. The time will bring them. Do you mean Nepal does not have a political leader worth the name yet? If the country had a political leader, we would not have to see this situation. Our experiences have shown that one cannot become a political leader like B.P. Koirala, who was capable of taking all kinds of decisions, overnight. We have had politicians to lead the government but not the statesman. What alternatives do political parties like Nepali Congress and CPN-UML have? They have two alternatives. Either they can surrender to Maoists or to pressure the party to accept the democratic norms in politics. Maoists are trying to capture power through threat and pressure. Twenty-two political parties- which united against Maoist to form the government — must tell Maoists that they will not bow down under any coercion and force. Do you think international community will support the policies of the government to isolate the Maoists? If Maoist continues to use language of threats, violence and coercions, no one will back Maoists. International community also wants peace and stability in Nepal and democracy needs peace and order to flourish. I am not saying that we need to isolate the Maoists by using force but what I mean is to take actions by following the democratic principles and rule of law. The state cannot tolerate anarchy and violation of laws. People want peace and restoration of law and order since everyone is feeling insecure. In daylight, YCL cadres physically assault general manager of industrial state. Similarly, people are kidnapped. You cannot restore law and order just by making public statements. Even King Gyanendra imposed the state of emergency stressing the need to restore law and order but he too failed. There is a difference between King Gyanendra’s saying and doing and what I am hinting at. Unlike King Gyanendra’s authoritarian ways, the democratic government has obligation to protect the citizens as well as democracy. I am proposing to maintain order in society by following constitution, law and human rights. One cannot restore law and order just by making statements but people must feel it. You cannot compare it with King Gyanendra’s way. He spoke too much but failed to deliver. Do you think international community, particularly Nepal’s two neighbors who have major influence in Nepal’s politics, will back the idea to have a strong democratic government? Prolonged political instability in Nepal is in nobody’s interest. If Nepal turned into an anarchical state, nobody will benefit. So far as our two neighbors are concerned, political stability in Nepal is pre-requisite to guarantee their security. Only stable and democratic government can restore law and order in the country. My understanding is that stability and peace in Nepal is in the interest of India and China. Unstable and chaotic Nepal creates more problems to them. Who will restore the law and order? Only democratic government and democratically elected government can take strong decisions. I am not in favor of any form of dictatorship whether it is Maoists’, army’s or anybody else’s. What I want is strong and stable democratically elected government to restore law and order. There are lots of people in our party and CPN-UML. When Nepali Congress and CPN-UML have already lost their grounds at the village level as well as in urban areas and Maoists are gradually improving their stronghold, how is it possible for them to compete with Maoists? Because of weak policies, CPN-UML and Nepali Congress became weak. If they follow the correct policy, they will recover. What do you mean by correct policy? We need to show our commitment to democracy and national reconciliation. The priority of our party now is to go to power at any cost even at the cost of party. Our priority must be country’s interest, democracy and people. There is a rumor in the market that undemocratic government is in the process of making in the name of stability and strong leadership. How do you see the possibility of such a government being formed? These are completely baseless rumors. I don’t think anyone will support a non-democratic government. What people want is strong democratically elected government which can provide stable and strong leadership. People want the government to address law and order, garbage problems and health related problems of people. For instance, they need a government which can respond quickly to diarrhea affected areas of Jajarkot. It is a shame to see people dying by diarrhea in this era with sufficient availability of medicine. Do you see any possibility of Maoists going back to their earlier position? I don’t think they will go back to jungle any more. Since opening up the party, Maoists have invested a lot of money in industries and other sectors. What we need to do is to convince Maoists that they have future in democratic system. If that is so, why are Maoists not realizing it? 0ur parties are divided between pro-Maoist lobby and anti-Maoist lobby. There is competition among NC and CPN-UML leaders who want to be in government with support of Maoists. This encourages the Maoists to make a fool of other party leaders. This is unfortunate part of Nepalese politics. Do you see any hope in this government? Madhav Nepal was elected as the prime minister. His government was formed after dislodging Maoists. It is strange to see that this government is again working as a pro-Maoist government though this is a non-Maoist government. Prime minister Nepal needs to prove that he is leading a non-Maoist government. Do you think Nepal’s two neighbor India and China will support a non-Maoist government? They will support such a government. Only stable and democratically elected government can protect their interest. If there is a weak government, both the neighbors will suffer. Of course, some might think that destabilization in Nepal is beneficial to them but unstable and chaotic Nepal will have long term implications. Only stable and democratic government in Nepal is in the interest of both. Is it only your personal analysis or you have perceived this in your meetings with the officials from both the neighbors? I used to say similar things in formal or informal discussions with friends from our neighboring countries at various levels. They agreed with me. Do they draw similar conclusions as yours? They say that they too want stable, strong and democratic government in Nepal. Nobody disagrees with me. Chinese are very much worried about Nepal’s situation. This is because of the weak government in Nepal. Similarly, Indians are also deeply concerned about Nepal’s deteriorating situation. As a result of weak and fragile government, Nepal’s two neighbors feel greater threats from Nepal to their security than from other things. When can Nepal see a strong and stable government? Is it after making a new constitution or before? Since there is an elected CA, it can give the country a strong government. How do you look at the constitution making process? I don’t think constitution making is anybody’s priority now. Whatever Maoists claim, the constitution making process is going to be delayed following the announcement of CA blockade by Maoists. There are disputes in all parties. We are in a mess now. We are in the process of dismantling zones, districts, VDCs and municipalities in the name of state restructuring. We have to create new infrastructures for federal states and new borders for VDCs and DDCs. At a time when there are growing confrontations among major political parties, this will invite more disputes. Political parties have realized that we have made commitments to federal structure without doing any study. Maoists have been changing their stand almost every day. There is even dispute on interpretation of democracy. Nepal is a member of UN and signatory of Universal declaration of democracy. Looking at Maoist activities, we don’t have any possibility to see the constitution in time. But Maoists claim that they are committed to the constitution and their agitation is a strategy to press the government on writing it? I don’t think Maoists are committed to make a democratic constitution. Their actions and roles are hostile to democracy. Published in Spotlight weekly [ August 16 2009 ]